Breaking news and analysis on day 3 of Gaza’s Al-Aqsa Flood | The Electronic Intifada Podcast

and we're live we are live hi everybody near and far uh thank you so much for joining us on uh this Monday as we um inaugurate our our live stream capabilities here at the electronic andata um ASA take it away L hi um yes sorry technical difficulties well this is our uh first ever live stream actually so this is going to be a bit of an experiment for the electronic inter a so bear with us we'll see how it goes um obviously you know this is well this is a new world we're in this is an unprecedented era and and we thought it was a good time to go live so we're going to be trying to reach people from Gaza later on in the Stream um and we're joined here to kick things off with our executive director Ali abun and with a friend of the show John Elmer who's going to be giving some of his expert analysis as always um but um Ally do you want to kick things off for us with you your assessment of the situation as you can see it in Palestine right now yes and first let me say to everyone welcome to the very first electronic in live stream thank you for joining us thank you John for giving us your time I'm very excited to hear what you have to say about the military situation some of your observations that I've been reading have been really insightful and stunning and I know that we're going to be trying to get some of our friends from Gaza live so I hope people will really stick around and thanks to the EI podcast team you always do a brilliant job but bringing us on live for the first time uh it this is uh really great so I mean we're all watching I think history unfold and uh starting backwards from what the horrifying events unfolding to day in Gaza where we see Israel really going wild not even pretending that there are any military objectives to what they're doing they are massacring entire entire families in their homes there have been today uh there was today the bombing of a Marketplace in jabalia killing more than 50 people they have bombed civilian neighborhoods all over Gaza they have bombed mosques and the point is to kill people in Revenge for Israel's humiliation and defeat at the hands of the Palestinian resistance uh what we have seen unfold in the last few days is something I think we thought Could Happen theoretically at some point in the future but I don't think any any of us thought it would unfold in real time in the way it has what has been utterly destroyed is the myth of the Israeli Army the Invincible Israeli Army the courageous and skilled Israeli soldier and the uh all knowing Israeli intelligence net uh apparatus what we saw revealed was a paper army that dissolved the entire Gaza division melted away I read in the Israeli press over the past 48 Hours about how for five hours the Israeli Army didn't even know what was going on they didn't know that hundreds if not thousands of very highly trained Palestinian resistance Fighters had crossed in out of Gaza into the 1948 occupied territories by landc and air and the videos that have been coming from the kasan brigades are just stunning of of resistance Fighters taking over entire milit bases capturing soldiers in their underwear killing soldiers uh it seems that you if you hadn't seen them you wouldn't believe them uh and the scale of the catastrophe for Israel to its image to its self-confidence to the confidence of the settler colonists that their army and their state can protect them I don't think it's sunk in the scale of the disaster I think this is this is bigger than Israel's uh shock in October 1973 it's bigger than its defeat at the hands of the Hezbollah resistance in um July and August of 2006 and the profound results of it have uh yet to unfold of course what we're seeing now in terms of Israel's reaction is sadly pretty much what you'd expect as I mentioned going wild on the civilians because they can't fight because when Israeli soldiers are put face to face hand to hand with the committed resistance Fighters they uh are unable to fight they surrender or they're killed now what we've seen in terms of the announcement this morning from uh yav Galant the Israeli defense min minister is really a a declaration of a genocidal war against Palestinians in Gaza Galant announced a total Siege on Gaza cutting off food water electricity uh any form of supplies to two million plus civilians living in what is basically a giant refugee camp or open air prison half of them are children these are war crimes and crimes against humanity of the highest order he said we are fighting against human animals and we must act accordingly it's not hyperbole hyperbole to say this is Nazi language this is the language of Hitler this is extermination language this is the language uh that a Nazi style regime uses against its victims in a concentration camp and this is what Palestinians have every right to resist and fight against and have been doing so for years it's this is not the first time around and what I I want to say in terms of just kind of wrapping up the these introductory comments is the reaction from the so-called West the United States the uh British the Europeans what Joseph had in a brilliant article that we published uh at the electronic in in uh last night accurately called the international enemies of the Palestinian people normally they will pay lip service to you know they'll say Israel has a right to defend itself but civilians should be protected they're not saying that now they are giving Israel uh a hundred green lights to commit these massacres the question is why why have they dropped even the mere pretense and the mere lip service to human rights it is because they understand that this settler colony in Palestine is not permanent what they saw in the last few days shakes their confidence that it can and will continue to exist and that's why they are telling the Israelis you can do what you want you can go wild on the pales Ians and we will back you but there is no military solution to Israel's to to the reality that Israel is a settler colony of a minority population a minority population the Jews of the minority in historic Palestine ruling over an indigenous people that is a volcano erupting in uh its struggle for Liberation Israel can't bomb its way out of that situation and whatever horror it commits in Gaza at the end of the day it's still going to be an ilit an illegitimate settler colony and the Palestinians are still going to be fighting for their Liberation that's what I see that's what I uh feel coming from our friends and comrades in Gaza and across Palestine who we'll hear from later but that's kind of the picture I see now thank you so much ali um and and uh I want to bring in raat alar he is a contributor to the electronic andata he's in Gaza uh right now um rat thank you so much um for finding you know one bar of sell Service uh and you know a little bit of battery to join us can you please um update us on on what the current situation is right now in Gaza uh thank you Nora Ali John and ASA unspeakable brutalities what we're seeing is is unbelievable it's unbearable for us watching it from the safety of where we are and it's impossible to imagine every couple of minutes whole buildings are being uh destroyed uh the roads to alifa hospital I just tweeted that almost all the roads to alifa hospital were destroyed uh so many families no matter how many tweets you see or how many live streams you watch the reality on the ground is a lot a lot more terrible than it is on social media and and Twitter and if if not sure this is the the whole room is filled with gunpowder C or guling cement my hair is uh filled with dust and cement and the little kids behind me are terrified in fear the little ones and we can see the pictures that follow quickly uh whole buildings residential buildings businesses uh Palestinian infrastructure schools hospitals ambulances uh medical centers you you don't you don't know whether this is it it's we will not we we're not uh we don't deserve this we're not animal like the Israelis think uh our kids deserve better Israel knows that uh uh they want to punish the kids the civilians like Ali suggested and I have always said this even before uh even from the 90s when young Palestinians Ali said praise those Valiant Fighters they are to be praised but if you know them in real life when you see the pictures of those Fighters they're very simple people they're lightly uh uh armed modestly trained but they have a weapon that Israel does not have the weapon of uh the belief the faith that this is your land that you're right fighting a brutal European Colonial Enterprise that is been uh brutalizing Palestinians for over uh seven uh seven decades the Palestinians are fighting with those people even from the 90s and later on in the second in they always always came Victorious when they came face to face with the Israelis always caused them loss in so so many operations and look at what happened it's a miracle actually 100 million Miracles that took place but it's all will planned meticulously planned by people who have almost nothing except their faith and those people believe that they're not only fighting for Palestine they're fighting for the umah they're fighting for a cause that is just a cause that is uh if that should should not and cannot be forsaken we believe that if we give up then everybody is going to say look at the Palestinians they give up why don't you behave like the Palestinians why don't you bow down and Israel knows this and Israel is punishing not by the way the Palestinian Fighters they are inside they are inside occupied land and and many of those people from Shia from jabalia from kanun and RAF and everywhere they have their parents and grandparents who have land behind the the the armus line My grandmother used to to point over there saying that when Palestine is free you will be you will be rich because we have a lot of land that we can use to farm to sell but it's it's not ours because of the Israeli brutal occupation what I'm saying here briefly that it's extremely horrible uh the infrastructure it's unprecedented I'm not exaggerating again if I'm if if I'm saying that this is the blitz again all over like what happened in London by by the Nazis unfortunately by uh uh uh the the Israeli zionists who claim to be the descendants of uh uh the victims of of the Holocaust are inflicting yet a similar plight similar catastrophes against the Palestinians uh we know that it's very Bleak it's very dark uh there's no way out if if there's no water there is no way out of Gaza what what should we do like drown like commit mass suicide is this what Israel wants and we're not going to do that and I was telling some somebody some friend the other day that I an academic I probably the toughest thing I have at at home is an expo marker but if the Israelis invade if they barge at us charge at US Open Door too to Massacre us I'm going to use that marker throw it at the Israeli soldiers even if that is the last thing that I would be able to do and this is the feeling of everybody we are helpless we have nothing to [Music] lose you're an academic and you are a teacher and you have uh uh inspired and taught and mentored many of the writers contribute to the electronic in Def um are you in touch with some of your students and colleagues are you able to stay in touch with people around you and to and I I just ventured out to to the pharmacy to bring some medicine and was my my car was almost bombed five times just just driving for five minutes to the pharmacy to bring medicine uh to the little ones uh painkillers and stuff uh and can can only imagine how horrible it is I I I took some videos and these are few counting it's like every couple of minutes these are just the ones around where I live in the Gaza City in t Hawa and you can multiply this by 100 times all across the G ra i it's not easy to call people I it's not easy to contact people especially family members in shuay most of whom had to leave their their homes uh Israel has just uh destroyed the Palestinian Telecommunications company uh with no internet uh no uh no electricity there will be barely any internet or access or signal to call people sometimes I was just calling my daughter and it took me like five tries just to uh to get her to answer me uh I am in touch with uh with the people uh with some of my my my my friends my students I I try but I'm helpless like my students I'm teaching English poetry uh this ter I was teaching them your PO Ali and they always love it and and I always tell them that PO how poetry can be your uh Your Weapon It's Your strongest weapon it's what you you need to do to to carry to to do this but I'm I'm lying to them I think I'm lying to if I'm if I'm telling them that this is your strongest weapon in Israel is pouring tons and and tons of of of dynamite of us made missiles up on our heads I I posted I keep posting uh messages trying to reassure them sending prayers to the my students and my their families and and loved ones knowing pretty well that many of them will not be back and some of their family members their homes and I just I'm getting a tweet just now messages that the Islamic University was was targeted I'm praying that this is not true if uh that's true that's like uh um almost 1,500 people without jobs and 20,000 uh students without uh classes without benches without uh a university uh degree so Israel it's it's an open uh it's a war against everything there is nothing that Israel did not uh hit and there's just one message it's a message of hate of death and destruction that's it there's no message because and I I don't like to to to to say this because I don't want to be using the Israeli captives as a way to to dissuade the Israeli so to speak from bombing but these bombs will definitely harm and hurt the Israeli civilians so to speak and soldiers captured in in in Gaza in Gaza strap in the Gaza strap but maybe Israel is bombing this hard so that they can kill those people those Israelis before they kill the Palestinians so they don't have to free the Palestinian political prisoners they are we are dealing with people that are extremely horrible like they are literally inciting genocide and taking words from the Nazi language and Nazi discourse what else do you expect me the least you could expect there was this I think uh was it the Jewish uh Congress uh that weed something about the Holocaust that the number of uh of of Jews killed by the attacks from Gaza uh exceed any number any day uh of Jews killed during the Holocaust and this is categorically mathematically statistically it's wrong uh and it's a minimization tribalization of the Holocaust but look what extent they are willing to go this is Holocaust denial not only revisionism because statistically it's not even close but they are willing to exonerate Hitler and the Nazis in order to demonize the Palestinians and uh justify justify the the upcoming genocide it's going to be ethnic cleansing we don't know in a week we're going to be in the sea buried under the or buried in graveyards if there is space or inai pushed out to die in the Desert Rat we've um you know over the many years of of these types of assaults on Gaza um you've you've regularly talked about how you discuss this with your children with your young kids um what how what are those conversations like right now as you know it's evening getting they're getting ready for bed um and you know we all hear what's going on outside we're trying to huddle in the uh place in the narrowest possible place that is least likely uh to to be hit that's that was like in the past uh and again we don't talk a lot sadly I I know that in the past I would spend time uh telling stories but with a systematic attacks against palestin sleeping Palestinians in their homes and the extermination of more than 20 families so far at least this was I read this a number 10 hours ago maybe it's now double the number we talk less the kids don't have we we like we eat less we drink less everything is less because uh because of the again what Israel is putting us into the situation I try to hug them um but again it's yeah it's it's very conflicting very difficult you don't want to hug them so they don't feel that this is this could be the last one and you want to hug them so at least there is a hug at there and you want you know to Pat on there it is very very difficult being a father here even you know the the expressions of intimacy and love are very difficult because they could be interpreted in in too many different ways and the kids know they feel all The Lies We Tell them that it's going to be okay that the bombing is far away they're they're not working uh now even the first day the first 24 hours there were screams and shrieks all over the area every time there's a bomb but now everybody is calm we this is the inter this is the worst kind of trauma the internal kind of fear and Terror that the kids have to go to through I took a picture yesterday of my little AML um here opening her little notebook and reading her her lessons interestingly AML developed the habit of not liking school not wanting to do her homework recently but all of a sudden change change happens happens yeah and she was reading stories for my wife NBA tells me that she's an excellent reader she's second grader but he will she reads well from from books hopefully she grows despite Israeli death and destruction and genocide and become an amazing story to uh Rat we've heard these genocidal threats from Israeli ministers to cut Gaza off completely from water electricity um and everything else what are the current conditions like in Gaza in terms of um electricity holding up and things like that uh since uh Saturday we had around 3 four hours of electricity some places where uh Israel hits very hard they lose any access to electricity and if there's no electricity there's no water because we have to use a water a water pump to bring the water because it it comes like naturally we have water couple of days sometimes more sometimes once a week twice a week and then we fill the tanks uh we fill the tanks you know until the next time so no electricity it means there's no water but uh where I I live we have a generator that could uh generate uh uh like up to three to five hours every day but we're using it as backup uh mainly now the the the instructions from the management of the the building is conserve everything drink less eat less don't use water don't take showers unless it's extremely necessary and yeah this is if not sure if this is only a slow genocide Israel is doing these are not empty threats this is an Israeli Prime Minister and they know this is going to cause AAR but yes the the the International Community is complicit they no longer care not even paying lip service to uh uh to us it's going to cause uh a a Time little embarrassment to to Israel because again also using this threat and lightening Palestinians to animal to animals to treat us like animals it's what's going on in the ground many areas don't have water or electricity those who have are extremely lucky and they barely can I'm not sure how many how long this can be the the same and clearly it's not going to to to to to stay the same it's it's it's EXC aggravating it's worsening on all levels even the intensity of the bombings they don't they don't stop 2021 it would only mostly be the days but now it's around the the the clock in in this to probably less than 30 minutes we have heard the boms around like 20 30 times and this is only in Gaza in the city one one one of the uh things that U Israel and its supporters always say is that uh they're not at war with the Palestinian people in Gaza they're at war with Hamas and the Palestinian people in Gaza are suffering because of Hamas and the resistance groups and the one of their goals through these repeated massacres and uh bombing campaigns that we've seen now with accelerating frequency 2008 2012 2014 uh and then accelerating now multiple times a year the goal is to uh in their mind to force the to turn the Palestinian people against the resistance groups by making them suffer so that people in Gaza will say to Hamas leadership you did this to us you brought these massacres upon us from your perspective and from the perspective of people around you is that Israeli strategy like to likely to work are people in Gaza going to uh blame the resistance for the horrifying situation that that uh people are in um there are two points here Hamas is 30 years old I think and this started well before Hamas decades before Hamas not only in the Years leading to the nakba the disaster 19 48 but even when the British mandate enabled and empowered and opened the doors for the the the the Jewish Zionist to immigrate to Palestine empowered them give them weapons uh we weaken the Palestinians uh destroy the Palestinian resistance so to speak so it's it's a lie it's a fabrication that this is only because of of Hamas Hamas and other Palestinian factions and groups uh are a reaction to the Israeli occupation and and brutality uh the the the framing that Hamas is bringing harm is also insulting to Palestinians because it negates Decades of Israeli Terror and I always say that even look at the West Bank look at the Palestinians in the 1948 areas there there is racism against them and apartheid look at the people in Janine and HEB and naos and Al Al Jerusalem they being brutalized every day that settlements are expanding and Hamas barely functions in in in in in the West Bank so this is completely and utterly untrue Israel is is using Hamas as a lie to try to deflect some of uh try to deflect some of uh the uh the the the blame or all all the blame that if if Hamas stops if Hamas is is not in Gaza we're not going to to be doing this and it's a lie the second thing uh uh Palestinians have learned a hard lesson that Israel is going to kill them no matter what in 19 in 2014 when Israel wanted to eradicate Hamas they killed people from the Islamic Jihad and from fat and they killed 551 uh Palestinian Palestinian kids and like 200 women and 150 elderly people or so uh so Israel does not differentiate Israel kills all the same thing happened again and again later uh in later Israeli attacks and so many Palestinians realize that if Israel starts a war it's going to kill anybody and this is one uh the second thing is that if you've seen the videos of people storming it started by Hamas the whole attack was planned executed started by Hamas and in every Palestinian faction even uh uh poorly armed factions with a couple of clashing cors uh participated in uh in in in the attacks against the Israeli military military posts uh uh what these issues about uh putting you framing this as it is uh because of Hamas uh uh the framing is is completely unacceptable it's it's wrong and the Palestinians uh find find themselves cornered after being rejected every means of resistance BDS anti-Semitism great rain March VI violence and snipers are sent by the way there was a report that the very snipers who killed and injured uh uh Palestinians like hundreds and thousands of them were uh are either captured or killed in in in the attacks uh uh so the Palestinians find themselves in a corner where they can either submit Neil and even that is not going to be allowed in in dignity you've seen the pictures I think of Israel capturing some of the Palestinian uh uh Palestinians and mostly they are not Fighters because they could have shown us the weapons there were no weapons many Palestinian civilians entered there because they wanted to see Palestine their their Villages and their towns and those people were arrested and they were humiliated so even if Palestinians choose to to submit to surrender Israel is going to humiliate them so for that and for our belief in our right to defend ourselves and the Dignity of of the the the Free World all Palestinians are in this uh uh together rat um thank you so much we we want to uh let you go so that you can conserve um your you know your energy and and and be with your family um so uh but we will have um have you back on of course we will have updates we will keep in in contact um yeah and uh thank you the you know it's it's rare that we're left speechless but um we're with you with you thank you so much we really appreciate come thank sh um so uh John we want to bring you on uh we also have abdal jaad Omar um and and we also have Shahed Abu Sal who has family in Gaza um waiting in the wings um John briefly before we bring on abdal jaad uh what's your reaction um to you know to what we just heard from rat and um and what have you been watching the last few days yeah I mean I think it's important to note that we don't know the level of the humiliation of the Israeli Army at this point Israel uh operates a military sensor on information on critical information and even non-critical information and the level of that sensor is very very significant so the amount of information that we have is just a very small amount of what's going on but we know that now um near the end of the third day that they still haven't um that there's still Palestinian gorillas fighting inside Israel that those gorillas are apparently being resupplied and the fighters are being refreshed they have tunnel access um in and out the Israelis have been as Ali said at the beginning have been chased off their bases the key bases around the Gaza Strip um including the base with the Gaza command um were emptied the Palestinian gorillas were driving around in Israeli vehicles um they had total control of those bases um we don't hear until the military spokespeople are pressed by journalists in their mourning briefings um just what's going on are there still people fighting and they let out little pieces of information that that we know that there's um fighting in at least seven or eight different places um we have witness testimonies that we've heard on the BBC from the um from the situation at the Rave where um partyers at that Rave were there for four hours and they said that there was multiple resupplies by the Palestinians in that period and no Israeli response to come and help them um the Israelis abandoned their people in the South um and even their soldiers um there reports of their soldiers being um basically like they always do but in a state of emergency hitchhiking to their spots because they have no way to get their people there um so um that's an important thing just the military sensor is keeping tabs on um some of the most humiliating aspects um and I think just in general it's um it's a remarkable action instead of um of having the fighting um take place on Israeli ter terms um Palestinians this fight's happening on their terms the number of captives that the Palestinians have which I think um should be at the Forefront of what's Happening Here is um is a historic amount the possibility to empty Palestinian jails um in a prisoner exchange um is um is is significant it's incredibly significant they have high ranking officers again the military censor won't tell us how many who's there um but we know that there's significant we know they ran overran those army bases so there's at least the commanders of each of those bases in custody um or dead um and so I think there is a lot more news to come out about the depth uh of the victory of the defeat of forces and I think we're told about the the intelligence Community right this is Israel is supposed to be um you know the startup Nation with uh you know underpinned by its Tech um you know where was unit 8200 that we've heard so much about where was the signals intelligence where was the human intelligence how did it take them five hours to even know what was going on uh when they tell the world that they're the state-of-the-art uh Military Intelligence the depth of the humiliation is um like I said we're barely getting to the you barely getting uh to the surface of of what is happening here and is it is it not the case John that uh the um Kasam brigades the military of Hamas said that they actually overran uh one of the unit 8200 bases and it's also my understanding at least it's been report some of the reports I've read that when the Kasam Fighters overran the ARs Crossing they took uh computers and hard drives which provide them with uh lists of um collaborators potentially and other information that would be of strategic importance so the failure is is potentially on so many levels that uh uh even the Israelis let alone we don't yet fully understand and comprehend and the fact that it's carried on for these days because we're sort of used to a spectacular attack and then it's over but each day Israel has to come to the mic and say actually nothing's changed we're still fighting the same war that we were fighting four days ago uh and and they can't speak to any concrete results and when you hear from their people I mean we even heard from the Kuts the people in the Kuts that the Palestinian Fighters were going floor to floor and telling people to go into their bomb shelters into their individual shelters to to stay away from what was happening um in those circumstances um more than more than their army was that their army left them abandoned in those situations I mean there's so many things looking forward it's it's hard to imagine people going back to those communities how that is going to look in the future um and even there's we're just at the beginning of this because the amount of um uh of this story that is the freeing of the prisoners um the historic freeing of prisoners um that's coming if people remember the exchange for one tank Gunner um back in 2006 that in 2011 that prisoner exchange was more than a thousand Palestinians for one tank Gunner um at this point we're talking about dozens of captives possibly hundreds of captives Abdul jaad uh from your view in the occupied West Bank uh what do you make of that um I mean I think I don't want to Echo too much what uh John was saying um I mean there was a a massive failure and the massive failure is deep it's long because I don't think this is an operation that was conceived in the moment it was planned out uh for months diversion tactics and a lot of trickery going into it to reach this point where uh Palestinian resistance decided to take things in their own hands and declare war and also uh invade Israel um so there's the intelligence F that John says and then there's also breaching the wall this is a underground wall um it's a highly electronization across the whole of the Gaza Strip um somehow Israel was blinded we don't know how uh it was totally blinded it did not even see um these Fighters coming in um all uh Warning Systems failed um including intelligence which should be conceiv of this attack but also in the moment like in moment zero they couldn't do anything about it and they were caught red-handed and um uh total surprise so in fact the Palestinian was able to destroy the entire line of defense that um surrounds the Gaza Strip and its uh military um let's say uh backbone so that's why we saw that the Israeli military took a long time for it to respond because it lost its command and control centers in this area it lost all information it couldn't really act or react um to what was happening and this is a moment of off balance for the Israelis it's a moment where they're very highly insecure and a precarious position and they're taking decisions under a lot of stress endurus to to try to retain some of their uh lost glory and and therefore it's a scary moment as well because um they are probably prone to make a lot of mistakes in their calculation as they move on so as they move on and try um to create havoc in the Gaza Strip the terror we saw um the bombs that we were hearing ASAT was speaking um preparing the ground for a ground assault it's easy to start a war it's not easy to end it it's easy to enter the Gaza Strip and try to show bravado but at the same time that that might come costly on Israel and Gaza the strip at the same time so there's a lot of things happening and as John says the the the fighting within uh 194 territories has not ended uh but I think one of the worries at least for me speaking is to what extent Israel's leadership now is mass miscalculating its steps and moves and uh pushing not only Gaza but the entire region for a war um that could change the face of the Middle East I mean we're at this point at least and how are people in the West Bank uh reacting to you know the the prison break in in Gaza on October 7th and um and you know of course the bombing campaign that Israel is relentlessly um engaging in now I mean it there's a lot of awe there's a lot of um um excitement hope uh generated by what happened in the past couple of days in the West Bank but also a lot of helplessness and also a lot of uh feelings of you know um horror and Terror surrounding people because it's one of these moments where the future seems hanging and you don't know where it's going um and still I think the past three days have not been um um still you know embedded too much in our Consciousness yet I mean I think we had this moment where we couldn't believe what was happening and I think people are still making it you out of this condition of that what happened actually really happened and as John was saying we even what happened is still engulfed with a lot of let's say uh misinformation um the slow spread of news of the killings what really happened and transpired is still not totally uh clear for most people in the West Bank but there's a lot of anticipation and I think it's creating this moment in where there's a shift in Consciousness that Israel is not what Israel was in terms of its fighting powers in terms of its regular army if it's in terms of its will to fight and we saw that in Janine months ago we're seeing it today as well with soldiers abandoning their bases and running away and not protecting um the settlements that they we're supposed to protect we're seeing it in many Arenas in many different ways and Israel's respones like always is to fight by remote control is to fight through air power is to fight through um cowardly moves that I think you know um makes it a very uh thirsty bloodthirsty power but one that is not willing to risk its own uh soldiers and its own um its own military so there's this shifting Consciousness but I think it's still slow and as things move on um I don't know what's going to happen in the West Bank as well I mean things have history has opened up today I mean in the past couple of days and I think we don't really know nobody really knows what what what could go on Abdul joed um question for you about this the ground Invasion and then maybe after you John you probably have thoughts on this too but what do you make of all this talk of a ground Invasion into Gaza by the Israelis there's and on the western media at the moment there's a lot of sort of live coverage of Tanks being sent down to the to the south of um 1948 Palestine um and there's you know lots of talk about a ground Invasion and and so on and so forth uh but you know during the last major escalation um against Gaza we saw similar talk you know there was a lot of talk about ground invasion of Gaza um and uh that all came to nothing that said this is obviously an unprecedented situation um but as as you've both been saying the battles inside 48 territories are still ongoing so what do you make of this kind of talk um um I think look there's a context to what happened also from a military perspective in terms of you know Israel's dialogue if you want military dialogue with the resistance groups so what happened in 2021 was a diversion tactic that was meant to take hamas's uh Fighters into the tunnels that Israel has figured out and then bomb these Fighters while they're in the tunnels and it didn't work because Hamas caught on the trick and actually did not Place its Fighters Within These tunnels um but what's important about the last rounds at least coming into this offensive this palisin offensive that we saw is that Israel's refusal to actually do a ground maneuver to exchange prisoners with the four prisoners that is Hamas already had and captured incentivized this process for the Palestinian resistance to find a new way to engage the Israelis uh to figure out how they could reach and actually have close to close combat so it's actually partially what happened today was the was uh you know was produced by Israel's refusal to engage in any military maneuver now it's one thing to do a military maneuver within the Gaza Strip you can have a limited maneuver you could have a deep maneuver you could say look I want to go in and I want to destroy the entire resistance and its infrastructure um and a long campaign um so there's multiple multiple options for Israel for what it could do in terms of a ground maneuver but they are all also um tedious and risky in terms of um you know also finding out that its ground forces are not ready for such War especially for an army that has evaded such types of of actions at least for the past decade or so at least since the 2006 Lebanon war has tried to move away from military uh Maneuvers deep within enemy territory um for it to actually now decide on it without any concrete political objectives without any concrete uh policy obes except to wreck havoc also could lead to its own to as a disaster in its own making I mean in military science we always say War you can start a war But You Don't Know How It Ends you can go in but you don't know what actually will transpire um and it could only deepen Israel's crisis because also a ground maneuver could also incentivize other players in the region to enter this world war and to make also um this kind of maneuver more difficult as multiple fronts open up and we can see a more broad form of warfare happening in terms of Rocket fire Firepower coming from Lebanon or Syria or other places uh I'm not sure because I don't think also in terms of hamas's alliances and Palestinian resistance alliances that they will be left alone uh to withstand Israel power without them interfering at some point whatever that point is is um it will be a critical point also in the transp in what transpires throughout the upcoming campaign that Israel is launching but right now what Israel is doing is basically an air power campaign that actually targets civilians um not as a you know uh collateral damage but it's targeting and trying to horrify civilians through um and also doing some tactical objectives by trying to open new spaces for tanks and other military vehicles to open up and that's why we're seeing this heavy uh fire falling on Gaza but it it includes different nods institutions like universities um you know civil institutions it's trying to destroy the entire uh Gaza Strip infrastructure uh exacting a heavy price but also um um attempting I think at some point to open up the space in different ways for its ground maneuver within the Gaza Strip itself um so that's what's happening at least if we read it from far away I'm not sure if that's what actually would transpire but at least these are my narrow predictions and John you obviously spent a lot of time in the West Bank as well um as well as Gaza can can you talk a little bit about um what you're seeing in terms of uh what Abdul jaad said um across the West Bank but also kind of you know what what the Strategic um uh formation might might look like in terms of whether or not Israel enacts a ground Invasion yeah I mean it's hard to imagine a ground Invasion at this point when they're still fighting inside their own territory like do they mount the ground Invasion and also have a back flank fight that's happening inside their territory I mean they're in a position that um that we've never been in before and it's difficult to make predictions on it because things can change so fast the posture of Hezbollah in the north doesn't make it seem like uh they're going to sit this one out and you know some of it might be posturing some of it might just be solidarity actions to make it seem like that's the case but hasbalah has significant capabilities to turn the conflict in a very very short amount of time by participating just a little bit um so if it does become a wider Regional War there that does not benefit Israel um a a micro you know this talk that they have to punish Hamas like anytime they switch their Invasion talk to punishing Hamas in particular you know that it's going to fail because there's no way to do that it doesn't work that way Hamas is the Palestinians that live in the Gaza Strip and um there there's no way to eliminate that um and just in terms of uh like Israeli capability I haven't seen that capability of an Israeli ground war um now you know eight years after their first failed ground war where they went in and basically went okay no we're not going to do this and basically turned on their heels and left um it's hard to see eight years later that the The Defenders of Gaza aren't eight years more developed in their defense while the conscripted Army of the Israelis who they talk about our school teachers uh during the week or what have you are going to be lining up in order to um you know to go down into the tunnels and fight underneath the Gaza Strip in the you know underground Metro System that's been created it just is not doesn't sound to me like a realistic option and if it is their option it sounds like extremely deadly one both for Palestinians but for Israelis too and on a level that the Israelis most likely can't tolerate as a country I think at some point how many days of rockets falling if if hasbalah decides to join even just the rocket War how many days can Israelis live in bomb shelters um of their own making where their own government said we're going to do this we're going to put you in these bomb shelters and they're not winning visibly not winning the conflict it just it's really difficult to see on this third day when the most important element of the story today is that they still haven't been able to put down the incursion into their own state that part we don't know the numbers but it's far less numbers of Fighters then will meet them on the other side of the Border should they invade Gaza it just doesn't look from here like something that Israel can escalate very easily they now have hundreds of their captives um are they going to carpet bomb Gaza with their captives they're going to kill their captives um so there's so many different things that Israel has to now take into question that you know even 10 years ago um when everybody just assumed that they were the Goliath that could do whatever they wanted um things have really changed they changed in 2006 for Hezbollah and of course we've all seen Hezbollah hasn't looked back that the ability to win that war is worth something that um that Israel maybe can never get back yeah um and now they're tempting that in the Gaza Strip it's it's hard to see that being successful from an Israeli point of view and from a Palestinian point of view of course we hope it doesn't happen um but if it does happen I can see Israel walking into an ambush in the Gaza Strip Ali I know you have a question um just wanted to reintroduce our guests um and pre-introduction at beate University analyst and Scholar um and in one moment we'll bring on Shahed Abu Sal um who is a good friend long time friend of the electronic inata um joining us from London uh uh so yeah we'll get to shahad in in one minute ali um go ahead oh you're muted thank you Abdu Jawad and John your analysis is really helpful I guess the the thing I'm thinking about or wondering about and I suspect a lot of people are is of course we've all grown up with this uh idea of Israel of as this immense and capable military power um but we have seen a number of of notable failures in recent years of course going back to the two well the year 2000 when the Lebanese resistance expelled the Israeli occupation from Southern Lebanon and then in 2006 when the Israelis not just the Israelis but the Americans and the European an they thought that Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 2006 was going to finish off hisbah and there was almost a a pre-celebration among some of the uh Arab dictatorships among uh uh the Europeans and the Americans you'll recall that condalisa Rice The American Secretary of State at the time called the Israeli uh war on Lebanon the birth pangs of a new Middle East it didn't out that way the Israelis were humiliated they ran they ran away they they talked about their tanks being destroyed one after the other in in The Valleys of South Lebanon um and we've seen other such uh failures uh in recent years and after every single one uh the isra you know there's this Soul surging among the Israeli military and political establishment and they say we have to learn for the from the failures we have to improve our tactics we have to improve our training we have to change our thinking and you know yes we're going to do that and we're going to spend all the money and do what we need to do and yet here we are again uh why is it so difficult for Israel with all its resources and its seemingly unlimited backing from the United States to beat uh Hamas that is besieged in Gaza with probably a millionth of the resources available to Israel there seems to be something more fundamental that that has gone wrong for Israel I'd just love to get your thoughts on on what that might be um well uh Ali your your question is very very good but it's also very complicated um because the this is it goes to Sociology of things it it it it ties to technology one of one of the elements of why Israel is not willing to fight close battles and why it's losing this will to fight uh in combat and why it's not tolerant for any casualties is this kind of social ideology that exists within the state that they can live uh with zero risk um um take people's land and live with zero risk and that technology can protect them that defensive uh layer um you know with walls and uh with creation of new defensive techniques can actually enable them to still be on top of things while still not going and sacrificing um their young sons and daughters in war and battle like they've done to actually create the state so in many ways I think there is that technological element there's the structure of the family if you want um less uh you know less children which means less willingness to sacrifice there's a lot of historical elements that go to why Israel is incapable of fighting Wars like they did and I think because they're also meeting an enemy that is not anymore afraid to test its own tactical uh and technological Ingenuity in in a sense what we see with hisb and Hamas and others are people who take War seriously they take the the the science of tactics seriously they take whatever resources they have and they turn it into uh political action that opens the Horizon of the politically possible seriously so I think for the first time they're also meeting a foe that using whatever capacity even if it's narrow if it's uh simple to create this Horizon of what is politically possible so they're meeting a fo that also learns that also understands Israel it understands its Society it understands what it willing to do do it signs a composition of its government its military and intelligence class it understands also its strong points because it has still the state has a lot of strong points but also it understands its weak points and it could actually create things like what we've seen in the past couple of days an offensive maneuver that catches the state by surprise and its military eone and and everybody else so there's a lot of historical reasons for why Israel is failing the ground Warfare why it's leaving that ground Warfare It's social it's ideological it's it has to do with the Fishers in society the structure of the family with technology and the over Reliance on technology and this hope that with with ever technical tools they have including Ai and cyber Etc they can conduct war from the safety of Tel Aviv highrise or wherever they are and and I think this is just an impossible equation if if uh for them and I think that's why they're also while they're caught offhanded while they're in this you know um area where there's a lot of psycho effective I think also discourse coming from their leaders in a way you that shows anger that shows um being shaken yesterday the the the head of the military the general the chief of staff of Israel was speaking to try to give confidence to Society but he seemed really weak shaken uh he didn't look okay at all um his speech was very weak um and and you can see that they're making now decisions under durus and and within um with total shock and I think there there will be a lot of miscalculations going into this from their side on what is possible for them to retaliate because in many of the campaigns this is a very concentrated campaign from the pal Palestinian perspective and you already have the biggest event in the first two days uh coming in and the more they want to push this the more they want to uh go after Gaza and the resistance there the more it opens up the space for award that Israel certainly does not want yeah I think there's also just a professionalization of the Palestinian forces that we have to put our finger on as well that began back in the you know in the the mids um ahed Jabari um set about making an army and instead of having a Guerilla factions um to make a professionalized army they shared information with the Mad mugia of Hezbollah and it was a concentrated program um to train the fighters in a professionalized army um they recruit better um they recruit younger um they have an eye on um f on building a fighting force the way that Hezbollah did in Lebanon by accessing like youth movements um and and having people come out um as professional fighters right from the beginning and to join the Army um and that kind of um professionalization is what we've seen really on display and each year it gets better in 2008 we saw the Rockets were going further right in 2014 we saw that they could repel a ground Invasion by moving through tunnels in their own territory um that had been pre-built to Ambush Fighters um Israeli Fighters um the professionalization on display over these last three days basically ghosts coming in and out out through the tunnels the Israelis have no idea where they're even fighting they can't tell you how many places they're fighting at um but you have a professionalized force that's holding down resupplying refres refeshing its Fighters um that quality of soldier I mean even just something as simple as looking on Twitter at the sort of military nerd community that talks about these kind of things and they watch the helmet cam footage of the Kasam Fighters um and they're internationally recognized as competent Fighters as excellent Fighters and and that's on display and I think to to that degree there was a process within the Palestinian national movement to create a professionalized army um and they've done that rather than fighting under one Banner or another one faction or another um but to create uh a unified command of course um Kasam and SEL kuds are the leaders of that but um the other factions have ways to participate as well but the the professionalization and quality of the Palestinian fighter is What's um set setting the tone in these last um number of conflicts and professionalization of their intelligence operation too clearly you know the fact that they were able to defeat um supposedly the most you know awesome intelligence operation in the Middle East Israel um that myth of the Invincible mosad and shinb has just been busted forever and the fact that Hamas and the other factions were able to defeat that in one day obviously as Abdul jaad said earlier this was clearly months if not years in the plan the fact that they were able to defeat that just shows how uh how professional that Counter Intelligence operation is I wanted to bring in uh our friend shahad Abu Sal um she is uh in London and um has family in Gaza um Shahed uh hi how thank you so much for being here um how is your family what are you hearing um from your loved ones in Gaza now hi all um my family like all survivors in Gaza are literally waiting for their Destiny my parents are they tell us to take care of ourselves and force ourselves to eat and sleep R so we managed to tell their stories in case they are gone and this is this is the situation that is uh facing every Palestinian in Gaza there is uh no discrimination between homes hospitals mosques um the stones trees there is no no discrimination at all everyone is is a Target and there is no place that is safe um right now I'm uh I only have one check on my messages to them and and every time like this happens like uh we we're struggling with the with the darkest thoughts um and the Telecommunications are are bummed the the internet and electricity infrastructures are bumped and uh people feel isolated and and they feel uh like they are already in the middle of a genocide being played out on in real Lifetime and on Life TV screens and and somehow the world is giving is continuing to give a green light to all these massacr um I am you know I'm from uh jabalia refugee camp and uh and my my my birthplace my my people my family are amongst those who who have lived through the massacre this morning that has been uh committed against jaler Fiji Camp my auntie and her uh children they woke up under the rubble of their own home they they they woke up under the rubble the house was uh disfigured their account is horrific they don't know how they made it out they they jumped over a a broken wall in order to make it out with the children shaking and and they they called it the Judgment Day people are are literally seeing death they're experiencing death and the smell of death is everywhere there's some like horrible unbearable smell that people are are like noticing everywhere where even in our home in our home my parents my my brother my my nieces are are are uh breathing the smoke and something that is like they they're worried that it's poisonous and right now I have you to be honest I have you in in in like half of my screen and the next screen is on live uh TV in Gaza I'm I'm I'm following uh Arabic uh News Palestinian uh Palestinians on the ground uh keeping us updated and and and it's just non stop bumping and when I get hold of my family uh on the phone phone I hear the bumping in in the back and they keep just jumping what there the everyone scared for their lives most of my family is displaced last night I couldn't sleep because my mom my mom sent me a message saying uh Shah we are in the street the the house uh our neighbors opposite our house have been threatened by bombing and all of my neighbors have evacuated uh the house as a result and my family didn't sleep last night at home and we were host of other families that escaped heavy bombing and as we speak right now there are more massacr there are there are more mass devastations and uh Israeli tanks are uh um being prepared to advance into the Gaza Strip it's it's horrific to see this happening yet again I was with you I was reporting from Gaza from Under Fire in in 2011 and uh and even since before then and and these horrific nightmares that we live in real life um are just causing us more pain more shock at how the world is is allowing this to happen and Israeli officials we've heard them everybody heard them everybody heard them threatening of wiping out Gaza turning Gaza into an isolated island and making an a call absurd full of absurd leave now leave where leave where while Gaza is besieged from land see and air and bombed from Land SE and air is it a joke it's a genocide that is happening taking place right now that people are being slaughtered and and the the US instead of finally recognizing that that it's it's uh billions of of money that are being that are that they're showering Israel with if every year and more so at times of at times like this there instead of recognizing the occupation the the apartheid the the deum the systematic domination of the Palestinian people as the root causes behind the the people uh fighting back they're they're fueling violence against the Palestinian people they're giving giving Israel the green light to do whatever they like I'm I'm horrified to be honest I'm shaking I'm shaking and I'm I'm just hoping praying that I won't receive the news of of my beloved ones and they're so close they're so close to to death sh we uh earlier we spoke with our friend and colleague in uh Gaza at the beginning of this uh live stream and we we heard the bombing the non-stop bombing as he was speaking and uh we also heard the uh worry in his voice and that's something that uh we've heard from so many people in Gaza and I can only imagine what it's like for your parents but also for you and for your sister and your brother who are far away from them now and the difficulty of uh of of bearing the worry about them and all your loved ones and and your auntie and thank God that they were were saved uh today um I wonder and you know it it it's amazing to me Shad that you have been writing for so long about all these things um and uh we actually met uh for the first time in Gaza 10 years ago 10 years ago we met in 2013 before the 2014 War uh and uh it seems like such a long time for people of your generation and your age to live with the siege with the nightmare with the constant bomb Bing and yet we heard from and we've heard from others about how Palestinians in Gaza despite the fear the fear is human I mean no no one who is human could face this horror without fear but at the same time they remain determined and defiant what do you think explains that where does that come from are the people in Gaza um a different kind of people do they have a different kind of strength or is is there something that over time makes people willing to to to show that dignity that Defiance in the face of something against which they're largely powerless yeah uh the and I think um the people are just desperate to see um a real change to uh the nightmarish reality uh that they are trapped under um the Palestinians have endured uninterrupted violence since uh 1948 and Gaza have uh seen a drastic uh form of this uh violence ever since actually the term um GA the the description of Gaza as an open air prison was used by refugees since 1948 and my grandparents uh could see our lands from some parts of lond uh some parts of uh of of uh the north of Gaza uh it's uh very close it's very close and yet it's it's so far from uh from being reached my grandparents they come from lands uh that uh that uh just it's it's incredible we live in in incredible uh times when when the 7th of nove of October uh when we woke up that day like we couldn't believe that uh Palestinian uh resistance have made it uh across the fence and uh and they are in in basically where where I come from where my grandparents come from so if if my grandparents live to see this day they they probably wouldn't have believed it it was such a symbolic moment um and uh the people have have had enough with uh with the dehumanization and with uh with their Humanity being uh denied basic needs denied um their rights to freedom justice and equality being denied um and uh they have tried every every possible way to uh uh to resist it is from jabalia refugee camp that the first antifada erupted and it was uh a a civilian form of resistance that was brutally repressed and then uh the the first antifada was uh the fire was put uh off by the Oslo Peace ords that promised um more more stability for Palestinians and uh and and more uh uh autonomy and and Illusions basically when when Israel only intensified violence against the Palestinians and and uh consolidated that Chuck hold over Gaza Advanced its uh settler uh expansion at a fact faster Pace than ever and all these are war crimes that the world is observing and the piles of evidence is remarkable but there is not enough will to to save the people and and and the people realize that it's it's up to them to free themselves of Israel's domination that is uh maintained with the Western support the West is partnered in this and the media mouthpieces are also Partners in this and they are fueling anti-palestinian uh racism and uh and islamophobia they are fueling this and they're they're creating an apartheid that that extend out of Palestine to the UK we should take a note of of uh what s sella Braverman uh said and she is the uh she's a UK government official yeah a state a state of secretary and and and she has has basically replicated Israel's apartheid in the UK offering uh preferred treatments to uh to Jewish citizens over anyone else that speaks to the just to I'm sorry to to interrupt but it it speaks also to the difficulty perhaps the difficulty that uh or the the increasing obstacles that governments are placing Western governments the ones who are the so-called champions of democracy and Free Speech for us as Palestinians or people in the solidarity movement to even advocate for Palestinian rights or to speak about Israel's crimes it's see and as you as you yourself have experienced sh you are for for our listeners who don't know you are an academic and you are a lecturer who was basically hounded out of your University because you dared to speak up for Palestinian rights and to speak up not just as a uh an academic and an intellectual and a writer but as someone who can speak from direct personal experience and even that you weren't allowed to do you weren't allowed to speak about your own life and experience of the kinds of Horrors that we're we're witnessing now so it does seem that the intent is to place Palestinians Under Siege not just in Gaza not just in the West bank but even throughout the world and uh uh even in New York there was news the the mayor of New York announced that the police were going to be monitoring uh a rally in support of Palestinian rights and uh John I'd love to hear uh if if you can say something also about the the Free Speech so-called Free Speech situation in Canada with respect to to the uh need now for people to raise their voices even louder given how Canada just like the rest of the so-called Western democracies are cheerleading for the massacres that we see in Gaza like the one that happened this morning in jabalia yeah Canada has been uh a firm Ally of Israel's um um through and through right from the beginning um getting a Canadian politician to speak out in defense of pales Ians is something that we don't really ever uh ever see and I think that um yeah the the political I mean the political environment in Canada which you guys have probably heard about is that we're at the stage where we're uh giving standing ovations in our Parliament to um Waf and SS fighters from World War II so the um the politics in Canada are a little frazzled at the moment for sure but they were also like like the the police leadership in all the major Canadian cities across the country uh this past weekend was saying that they were going to heavily surveil any protests about um you know in solidarity with Palestine um and and yeah and this is happening in the UK this is happening in in you know California where I am yeah soel Braverman has authorized police to use full force if if uh if there is any expression of quote unquote anti-Semitism and we know what they are trying to do with uh making anti-Semitism uh a synonym with anti-zionism so every one of us in the UK is is under threat if the they if they uh Express support with Palestine and our aspirations for freedom justice and equality apparently these rights that are guaranteed to to every people are uh are denied to the Palestinians and if they call for it we are anti- anti-semitic yeah yeah we've seen a lot of incitement anti- Palestinian incitement from British government officials in recent days um there's been lots of talk in the UK um from the British government that you know since this particular battle started of um that they're going to you know they're threatening to take action and arrest people who Express solidarity with Palestinians in London you know and there was I saw a British Minister being interviewed earlier today and he was talking about the that he was saying well there is there is a right to free speech but I would encourage people not to exercise it basically was what he was saying in Essentials and this morning we've seen a false story in the in the headlines of several British papers um about supposedly a kosher restaurant being attacked um in golders green a an area with a relatively large Jewish population um but it turns out this was and also they were saying that this was due to a nearby graffiti that said free Palestine well it turns out um the police later clarified that this was this restaurant an Israeli restaurant had its front door had been smashed because there was a burglary and it was nothing to do with the free Palestine graffiti um but you know nonetheless that didn't stop the mayor of London himself saying that this was quote unquote hate so he was and that the full force of the law would be used against the people who did it you know so we just we're seeing a lot of false stories and incitement in the in the west um about this um and it speaks to the increased weaponization of anti-Semitism especially in Britain well we're going to wrap up in a couple of minutes um Shahed I I want to uh just ask you like you know how how are you doing um how are you looking at this and um yeah and and and last thoughts for this broadcast at this time how does it feel to be a Palestinian living in the diaspora and looking to your family in Gaza uh I'm I'm I'm really struggling to process all this and and I'm honestly fighting my darkest thoughts um I'm horrified from uh various uh angles uh watching what my family and my people are going through and uh the collective punishment that is uh Crossing every red line and at the same time the justifications that are pared by world leaders and uh the uh military aid packages that are given to Israel and the the media uh how how they're equating between an occupied and an occupier that is backed by uh world uh Imperial Powers uh one of the strongest militaries in the world that is capable of of uh in seconds turning high-rise buildings into uh pile of rubble I'm I'm I'm shocked and and I'm I'm I'm following with uh great fear great fear and and I'm I I I can't I can't cope with the idea of of uh losing my family um and uh and I know that my family are are uh not uh um you know they're facing the same Collective uh suffering at the minute they are not immune from uh Israel's uh Terror no one is um and the world uh shouldn't look away and um and they they should finally uh recognize the root causes of uh this violence that we have endured for 75 years even even a hundred years more than 100 years if we count the the British colonization of Palestine that have led to this uh uninterrupted uh suffering structural violence and right now the bumping hasn't stopped uh on on the other half of my screen the the the sky is being light lit up and places uh the the Flames are rising and filling the Skies of of Gaza and the the level of dehumanization is is uh unprecedented so some International action needs to take place and intervene immediately on on behalf of the defenseless population there all these targets that that are hit their their their human their their people residential homes uh civilian uh properties and and there has to be an intervention on behalf of the Palestinians that are being slaughtered yeah Shah you're a academic a writer contributor to the electronic inata a friend a comrade um thank you thank you so much for being here with us um I think that's going to do it for this broadcast uh Ally do you have any last words just to say we send you and your family a lot of love shat we are uh we all feel powerless to an extent but I think for me who doesn't have to experience a fraction of the fear and Terror that you're going through uh orat and everyone else in Gaz is going through but for me what makes the today bearable as we witnessed this is the love and solidarity from the people around me and from uh all our friends and all our supporters and so we send you that love and solidarity and we thank you for um being here with us and I I just want to say uh thank you to everyone and to all our supporters of the electronic intifa who help us to try to Enlighten the world little bit about uh about what is happening uh we couldn't do it without you and thank you for joining us on this first live stream the first and definitely not the last and thanks to the podcast team for putting it together and making it happen without so far a glitch that's absolutely amazing incredible well done thank you so much everybody thank you thank you thank you shat and also we should say uh myself and a and from the from the e team are and John who's almost a member of the EI team in the sense that he is a great friend of the show but behind the scenes we have Tamara Nar who has been doing a fantastic job of of managing the live stream so thank you Tamar as well thank you tomarrow thank you yeah thanks for having me thanks John thanks Shahed um thanks ASA thanks Ali and uh keep tuned to electronic in.net on Twitter at uh on Instagram at electronic inata and um we will we will keep doing what we do best which is to um you know to to bring breaking stories and news and Analysis and we'll have another live stream very soon yeah and sign up to our email list at electronic inter.et is the best way to keep in touch with all of our daily updates uh Within These Days of fractured internet platforms U we still have the tri and trusted method of email so please sign up to that um as well as foll us all the platforms and liking and subscribing yeah and so people just to be clear if you just go to our website electronic interf father. net at the top left of the uh homepage there is a place where you can sign up for the email list and stay in touch with us even if Twitter or Facebook or whatever it is goes under you'll still stay in touch with us and donate to our work as well yes please we can't do this without you thank you everybody until until soon thanks guys thank you thank you bye bye